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	<title>Comments on: Freedom from Freedom&#8230; Is Not Freedom</title>
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		<title>By: Heath Davis Havlick</title>
		<link>http://jasonseiden.com/freedom-from-freedom-is-not-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-8256</link>
		<dc:creator>Heath Davis Havlick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for your thoughtful response, Jason.  I really didn&#039;t expect that. I just wanted to share some knowledge, but I get your points and, as a woman, certainly agree.&quot;the enlightened interpretations of the few are unfortunately drowned out by the more base and hurtful interpretations of the other 99.98% of the population.&quot;  Yep.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your thoughtful response, Jason.  I really didn&#8217;t expect that. I just wanted to share some knowledge, but I get your points and, as a woman, certainly agree.&#8221;the enlightened interpretations of the few are unfortunately drowned out by the more base and hurtful interpretations of the other 99.98% of the population.&#8221;  Yep.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Seiden</title>
		<link>http://jasonseiden.com/freedom-from-freedom-is-not-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-8217</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Seiden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 23:12:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonseiden.com/?p=4895#comment-8217</guid>
		<description>Heath,

Great response, and thank you.

One does need to be respectful of other cultures when judging from afar.

That said, I think there is a difference here between an enlightened view of religion (any religion) and the reality of how those religions are practiced.

And the reality is, women do not have a fair shake in this land, largely because the major western religions subjugate their roles.

In Orthodox  Judaism, women are kept separate from men at services and holidays. Call it what you will, slap whatever rationale on it you want, when my mother was not allowed to attend her own father&#039;s funeral simply because of her gender, &lt;em&gt;that&#039;s not right&lt;/em&gt;.

So while I can appreciate, intellectually, the circular reasoning behind the definitions of freedom, and the importance of allowing women to choose even if they choose the veil, in practice, that argument does not pass the smell test.

On a practical level, it leads to outcomes that are simply not right.

Theory here does not hold up in practice, as the enlightened interpretations of the few are unfortunately drowned out by the more base and hurtful interpretations of the other 99.98% of the population.

Women should be ordained.

Women should not be hidden behind veils.

Women should be able to attend their parents&#039; funerals.

If a woman on her own wants to wear a veil? Great, have at it. If a woman chooses not to attend the funeral, or decides not to go into the clergy? Great and great. But that&#039;s not what&#039;s going on. These are institutionalized practices. They&#039;re acculturated. And to that extent, they&#039;re wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heath,</p>
<p>Great response, and thank you.</p>
<p>One does need to be respectful of other cultures when judging from afar.</p>
<p>That said, I think there is a difference here between an enlightened view of religion (any religion) and the reality of how those religions are practiced.</p>
<p>And the reality is, women do not have a fair shake in this land, largely because the major western religions subjugate their roles.</p>
<p>In Orthodox  Judaism, women are kept separate from men at services and holidays. Call it what you will, slap whatever rationale on it you want, when my mother was not allowed to attend her own father&#8217;s funeral simply because of her gender, <em>that&#8217;s not right</em>.</p>
<p>So while I can appreciate, intellectually, the circular reasoning behind the definitions of freedom, and the importance of allowing women to choose even if they choose the veil, in practice, that argument does not pass the smell test.</p>
<p>On a practical level, it leads to outcomes that are simply not right.</p>
<p>Theory here does not hold up in practice, as the enlightened interpretations of the few are unfortunately drowned out by the more base and hurtful interpretations of the other 99.98% of the population.</p>
<p>Women should be ordained.</p>
<p>Women should not be hidden behind veils.</p>
<p>Women should be able to attend their parents&#8217; funerals.</p>
<p>If a woman on her own wants to wear a veil? Great, have at it. If a woman chooses not to attend the funeral, or decides not to go into the clergy? Great and great. But that&#8217;s not what&#8217;s going on. These are institutionalized practices. They&#8217;re acculturated. And to that extent, they&#8217;re wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Heath Davis Havlick</title>
		<link>http://jasonseiden.com/freedom-from-freedom-is-not-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-8216</link>
		<dc:creator>Heath Davis Havlick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 22:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonseiden.com/?p=4895#comment-8216</guid>
		<description>Your post comes at an interesting time, as I&#039;ve just finished a short course on Islam (purely out of historic interest).  I&#039;m going to have to side with the Syrian woman here.  First, taking away her right to wear that veil takes away her freedom to choose whether to wear a veil or not.  Second, wearing a veil means a lot of different things in Islamic cultures.  It can certainly mean freedom from men undressing you with their eyes, as the ladies with the Daisy Dukes and bikini tops know all about (though not much imagination is required there!).  Believe it or not, not all women want to be looked at.

You wrote, &quot;Freedom is a dangerous, frightening concept that puts you in full control over your own destiny.&quot;  It could be argued that this woman wears a veil as a way to take control of her own destiny.  There are plenty of modern Muslim women who grew up in families without veils but chose it as adults, for whatever reason.  And there are many reasons: religious, political, historical, financial--I just found out that Mohammed&#039;s wives wore veils because that&#039;s how the upper-class women distinguished themselves in that time.  It was a status symbol!

So, while I understand the spirit of your post, I think you picked a poor example.  I don&#039;t expect this reply to see the light of day, as it&#039;s not entirely germane to your point, but I thought you should have a bit more background on the whole veil thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your post comes at an interesting time, as I&#8217;ve just finished a short course on Islam (purely out of historic interest).  I&#8217;m going to have to side with the Syrian woman here.  First, taking away her right to wear that veil takes away her freedom to choose whether to wear a veil or not.  Second, wearing a veil means a lot of different things in Islamic cultures.  It can certainly mean freedom from men undressing you with their eyes, as the ladies with the Daisy Dukes and bikini tops know all about (though not much imagination is required there!).  Believe it or not, not all women want to be looked at.</p>
<p>You wrote, &#8220;Freedom is a dangerous, frightening concept that puts you in full control over your own destiny.&#8221;  It could be argued that this woman wears a veil as a way to take control of her own destiny.  There are plenty of modern Muslim women who grew up in families without veils but chose it as adults, for whatever reason.  And there are many reasons: religious, political, historical, financial&#8211;I just found out that Mohammed&#8217;s wives wore veils because that&#8217;s how the upper-class women distinguished themselves in that time.  It was a status symbol!</p>
<p>So, while I understand the spirit of your post, I think you picked a poor example.  I don&#8217;t expect this reply to see the light of day, as it&#8217;s not entirely germane to your point, but I thought you should have a bit more background on the whole veil thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Freedom from Freedom… Is Not Freedom — Jason Seiden -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://jasonseiden.com/freedom-from-freedom-is-not-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-8207</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Freedom from Freedom… Is Not Freedom — Jason Seiden -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonseiden.com/?p=4895#comment-8207</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Jason Seiden, StudentJobber.com. StudentJobber.com said: Freedom from Freedom… Is Not Freedom - I just read that Syria has banned Islamic veils at universities. In the artic... http://ht.ly/18e6g7 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Jason Seiden, StudentJobber.com. StudentJobber.com said: Freedom from Freedom… Is Not Freedom &#8211; I just read that Syria has banned Islamic veils at universities. In the artic&#8230; <a href="http://ht.ly/18e6g7" rel="nofollow">http://ht.ly/18e6g7</a> [...]</p>
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